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Post by Matt on Oct 20, 2008 9:37:09 GMT
So what did people think of M&R?
Is this rule system going to be a goer and is it worth me investing in Baccus 6mm?
Personally I thought the rules were rather good. I had two games over the weekend using the example Russian and Prussian lists. The games played out well and the battle's proved challenging and flowed nicely.
I particularly liked the use of Command Dice (although I would say that as I was playing the Prussians) and the variable number of pulses per turn.
The consensus was that the key to playing well was knowing when to pull troops out of the front line and not over extending.
Unlike a lot of games I felt there was a real requirement to conserve troops and not throw them away on the swords of the enemy.
I can't wait to for my next game.
Yours enthusiastic of Irthlingborough
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Post by Mark Wightman on Oct 20, 2008 10:33:06 GMT
So what did people think of M&R? I like the rules - thought they worked very well. Flowed and felt right, once we'd got used to the sequence of play. Is this rule system going to be a goer and is it worth me investing in Baccus 6mm? I think the rules are a goer. Although I'm not sure that 6mm is the right scale to use with them. I'm completely sold on the 6mm's though - lovely, so easy to paint. Personally I thought the rules were rather good. I had two games over the weekend using the example Russian and Prussian lists. The games played out well and the battle's proved challenging and flowed nicely. I particularly liked the use of Command Dice (although I would say that as I was playing the Prussians) and the variable number of pulses per turn. Yes - I think that all works really well. We didn't use any Prussians (played Warburg twice). At first glance they seem to be overpowered for their points costs. The infantry hitting on a 5+ would seem to be devastating. Did you find the same? The consensus was that the key to playing well was knowing when to pull troops out of the front line and not over extending. We could see that you'd want to do this, but couldn't see quite how you'd manage it. There's no retrograde movement within 2 BW of the enemy and no recovery within 3 BW, and FF Infantry cannot be interpenetrated or interpenetrate, so once engaged it's hard to pull back. Richard did manage it in one instance though, but that was with Cavalry, and the unit in question was "left behind" rather than fell back. Unlike a lot of games I felt there was a real requirement to conserve troops and not throw them away on the swords of the enemy. I can't wait to for my next game. Me too. I think these could be a real winner, although I'm a bit concerned about the super-hero prussians, but they aren't a problem in the WSS. Makes me want to try the Grand Armee rules too (I have a set). They're a bit more complex though, with troops classifications added (Raw,Drilled, Elite etc), but I get the feel you can do absolutely massive actions with them quite easily.
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Post by Matt on Oct 20, 2008 10:48:37 GMT
We played points based games using the pre-done army lists in the back of the book.
The Prussians using the points system are generally out numbered. 3:2 or 3:1. BUT they are rather manouverable and yes their musket fire is rather effective.
However my break point was 5 against the Russians 9. This made a huge difference to the game. On a number of occaissions I was able to get Russian units down to 1 SP but frustratingly couldn't finish them off.
This also meant that I seriously had to think about what I did with my units for fear of giving away break points to easily.
The use of command dice is rather good and did generally saw me keep the iniative HOWEVER I still found even with the extra CD's the dice gods conspired against me.
Even with the extra CD's the smaller nature of my force meant that if one of my Sub Commanders failed to become active the whole army was subsequently impacted. Where as the Russians were able to compensate for this through weight of numbers.
I also found that I struggled to protect my flanks with my smaller force when faced up against the Russians. Being flanked as I'm sure you found out is pretty devastating.
In summary if the Prussians played against a army on equal terms they should win quite easily. Howether points system should ensure that Prussians are outnumbered to compensate for the High CD's, Shooting and the free formation changes.
I think 6mm will be better suited to these rules as each unit represents a brigade and the large number of models you get on a base will help convey this.
On the note of Grand Armee I think I have enough 6mm Naps to carry out one of the smaller scenarios listed on the web site.
Just need a copy of the rules. Caliver have still failed to deliver my M&R rules so I'll wait a little bit before I order Grand Armee.
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Post by Mark Wightman on Oct 20, 2008 11:10:57 GMT
We played points based games using the pre-done army lists in the back of the book. The Prussians using the points system are generally out numbered. 3:2 or 3:1. BUT they are rather manouverable and yes their musket fire is rather effective. However my break point was 5 against the Russians 9. This made a huge difference to the game. On a number of occaissions I was able to get Russian units down to 1 SP but frustratingly couldn't finish them off. This also meant that I seriously had to think about what I did with my units for fear of giving away break points to easily. The use of command dice is rather good and did generally saw me keep the iniative HOWEVER I still found even with the extra CD's the dice gods conspired against me. Even with the extra CD's the smaller nature of my force meant that if one of my Sub Commanders failed to become active the whole army was subsequently impacted. Where as the Russians were able to compensate for this through weight of numbers. I also found that I struggled to protect my flanks with my smaller force when faced up against the Russians. Being flanked as I'm sure you found out is pretty devastating. In summary if the Prussians played against a army on equal terms they should win quite easily. Howether points system should ensure that Prussians are outnumbered to compensate for the High CD's, Shooting and the free formation changes. Maybe the Prussian lists and the Russians ones are more balanced. I've been looking at the French and Prussian lists and the Prussians seem underpriced to me. For example - take two "Good" commanders, so the CD's are the same. The French get 190 pts, the Prussians 170. So the French are effectively about 10% cheaper. The French infantry is also a little bit cheaper. A French 6 SP RI is 8 pts and a Prussian 6 SP is 9 (although 7SP units cost the same for both @ 10). You could make a sample army list ignoring the Cavalry, which costs the same more or less for both armies. Using "Good" commanders both can have 70 pts of Cav, so if we assume they do that give us 120 pts lefts for the French, 100 for the Prussians. Taking only the standard infantry the French would get 15 Infantry units, the Prussians 11. OK, so I've simplified quite a bit as the above armies wouldn't be legal, but I think you can see what I'm driving at. I could be wrong though. Only playing the game would tell, but my gut instinct is that they are too cheap.
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Post by Mark Wightman on Oct 20, 2008 11:13:03 GMT
However my break point was 5 against the Russians 9. This made a huge difference to the game. On a number of occaissions I was able to get Russian units down to 1 SP but frustratingly couldn't finish them off. I'm curious. How were they getting away? We couldn't see a way to pull engaged units back from the line, other than by pushing the opposition away. Did we miss something?
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Post by Matt on Oct 20, 2008 11:20:40 GMT
At this juncture I think we may have missed something. As I didn't realise you couldn't interpenetrate units that were in FF. As I don't have my rules I can't check to see if what we were doing was wrong.
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Post by Mark Wightman on Oct 20, 2008 11:50:10 GMT
It's only RI in FF that are restricted. Only Officers and Arty can go through them, unless they are in a town.
There's an optional rule to allow them to try it on a 4+.
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Post by terrywarden on Oct 20, 2008 12:03:44 GMT
I would have to agree that the rules seemed to work fine and would certainly like to give them another go. The five of us involved yesterday seemed to pick up on the basics fairly quickly; we all liked the command side of it which meant you could never really rely upon any unit to do just what you wanted when you wanted it. A few gaming aids/markers for the SP's etc will also help the game move along. I think the only element that is going to bug me is the need for sixes when firing; its almost like playing Frustration and needing the six to start; I was never very lucky at that either. Matt; did you try any using any Artillery in your game?
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Post by Matt on Oct 20, 2008 12:05:18 GMT
I would suggest then that we take up that optional rule as I'm pretty sure that those pesky Russkies stepped back through FF troops.
Which to frank was pretty frustrating. As a Prussian that would also make all the difference. Arguable I was able to pull back by not having troops behind me to prevent a controlled withdraw. I also used cavalry to screen my retreating troops as Infantry can't attack cavalry. This acted as a nice buffer while my beaten up troops were able to about face and leg it. (in a controlled manner obviously)
I opted for a checker board deployment with my troops which enabled me to move from MF to FF without a problem. This also meant I was able to pull troops back.
A lot hinged on initiative as well. As I stood a good chance of gaining the intiative I was able to pull troops out before the Russians could close in.
This lead to some very heroic manouvers by my dragoons.
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Post by Mark Wightman on Oct 20, 2008 13:44:00 GMT
I still think it has got to be nigh on impossible to pull people back from the line once the muskets start firing - whether you win the initiative or not. If you plan to do it by changing formation - then you have to telegraph the move by skipping a turns firing!!!
It also wouldn't work very well if the enemy gets within 1BW of your front.
I can see how the Cavalry might be able to force their way in to hold back the opposition, but I suspect only the Prussians can do it.
Plus, how do you stop the Cavalry being shot to pieces in the process?
Were you playing with the "No retrograde, or flank, movement if there's enemy within 2BW" rule?
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Post by Matt on Oct 20, 2008 16:37:45 GMT
No we weren't playing with that rule by all accounts as its the first I've heard of it. ;D
I still await my rules from Caliver or indeed a response from them as to where my order has gone!
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Post by Mark Wightman on Oct 20, 2008 16:42:25 GMT
No we weren't playing with that rule by all accounts as its the first I've heard of it. ;D I still await my rules from Caliver or indeed a response from them as to where my order has gone! Ah, that would explain how you could get people out of the line. We found it practically impossible without forcing your opponent back or destroying them.
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Post by Matt on Oct 20, 2008 16:42:25 GMT
If it helps though I performed an about face with my retreating units. Which can be performed at no cost prior to movement.
I photo copied the reference sheet so I can at least quote that.
The reference sheet also says you can't flank move with 2BW but does not mention retrograde moves. i.e I'm guessing its ok to leg it ;D
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Post by Mark Wightman on Oct 20, 2008 18:05:41 GMT
The section is G5.3 - I think we were doing it wrong. It seems that you can retrograde within 2BW, but you can't flank. We read it as both. Still, it's hard work getting to a position where you start and end the move over 3BW away from an enemy. Takes several turns and somebody really has to take your place in the line - unless your opposition can't activate. And even the hapless French will do that every now and again If anybody can do it - then it will be the Prussians - being able to oblique really will help.
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Post by Matt on Oct 20, 2008 18:19:20 GMT
On the plus side its generated enthusiasm and debate which is a good thing.
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