|
Post by John on Jun 30, 2008 16:09:11 GMT
I could potentially bring High elves rather than dark elves - quite a few figures are painted but not finished basing yet. e.g. 5 @ 24 spear units, 4 @ 24 archer units, 2 @ 12 reaver cavalry units, 2 @ 12 Dragon prince units, 6 pieces of artillery, 3 normal chariots, various magic users and heroes and a hero on Dragon. Not sure the other 6 single dragons or female horse archers on unicornes can be used for this? I know Mark has some high elves as well. What about seeing if Brain wants to field his Tomb Kings on the undead side? Didn't spot the Dragons and Unicorns bit first time round, I've got no problem with people wanting to field custom units. Obviously because people won't have seen them before I'd like them to be reasonably low on special rules and valued correctly. Obviously if they have proper Dragon stats they should probably fill up a Hero Slot. But for example I'd have no issue with a small (Sun) Dragon being riden by a mere Dragon Prince counting as a single Hero and points value of Dragon + 20 or so. I suppose the best idea is to get everyone agreed on what side they are on and army they are taking, then go over special units, game rules etc during the Monday before.
|
|
|
Post by Mark Wightman on Jun 30, 2008 16:10:44 GMT
"Including a flying Swan boat (don't ask)." I'm going to have to ignore your comma'ed comment, why? Why not? ;D I've also got two Gnome Chariots (pulled by Giant Badgers).
|
|
|
Post by John on Jul 7, 2008 12:54:24 GMT
I've updated the first post with more details, can anyone who has said they are interested or who might be interested please re-check it bedfordgladiators.proboards81.com/index.cgi?board=opponentswanted&action=display&thread=81&page=1#406Time wise, obviously it will be a long game? Is 13:00 to 20:00 a problem for anyone? I will try and get the table sorted out BY 13:00 so 13:00 would ideally be when we start deployment not turn up. But if the timing doesn't suit people as with everything it's not set in stone. The special rules and game details can be changed, I will try and get some discussion in over the next two Mondays. Lastly army wise, as things stand myself and Mark with Vamps VS Mike and Steve with HE would seem to be the best fit? I'd love to get a couple of others involved but that could still be a very good match (Good Elite VS Evil Hordes).
|
|
|
Post by mike on Jul 7, 2008 13:45:14 GMT
Hi John
Just confirming I'll be along with HE - and it will be 3.5K (well 3498 to be precise - assuming I get the eagles I ordered painted up in time), with LOTS of magic support - so good start for the Good Elite side
Regarding the rules - no problem with the deployment, combat res & shooting rules (there's a certain logic to all of that)
I'm still a bit worried about a second dispel attempt (and before anybody says it, it's not because I'm magic heavy - I really don't know which side it will benefit). My objection is largely to do with the timescale (as perceived by the characters, not the players) - Vampire casts spell, HE wizard tries to dispel and fails, it's now too late for a second wizard to have a go (even with a scoll) because the spell has taken effect That's just how I visualise it working - dunno, maybe I'm wrong - comments please people
Oh, and 1pm-8pm is fine by me - no problem with that at all
|
|
|
Post by John on Jul 7, 2008 15:01:19 GMT
Depending on the number of players, if it is only 2v2 then I doubt any special system will be needed.
The issues that need solving at 3+ players per side are combined dispelling power (The law of averages is on defencesive magics side) and the time taken for all casters to take turns.
The problem of taking turns is most easily solved by pairing up players and having pairs play magic phases seperately at the same time (with no inter-team discussion). But this leads to a situation where one player may have a unit destroyed by a spell he is neither aware of or allowed to stop, which I see as a big flaw in the system.
The only way around this is to allow the player who controls the unit a chance to Scroll the spell, if this was before a dispel attempt was made then this would mean a lot of interuption in other groups and discussion of what dice would be rolled etc, by making the choice AFTER normal dispel attempts it should happen less often.
The fact that rolling dispel dice AND scrolling a single spell is very in-efficient and that teams probably won't want to do it (except in very extreme situations).
If players really don't like this rule then I have no problem playing without it, but players then need to be aware that sometimes they will lose elite units and won't be able to do anything about it.
Also if anyone has an alternative 'fix' then I have no particular attachment to the one I am proposing, and would love to hear them.
|
|
|
Post by Mark Wightman on Jul 7, 2008 15:10:01 GMT
I was kind of hoping we were going to try and organise something a little more sophisticated than 2 vs 2 "I can bring 3.5k (or any other value)" battle. Perhaps I'd misunderstood.
The problems with big games, say 2 3.5k armies vs 2 3.5k armies, is that there are 4 Lord level characters per side. You are likely to see a staggeringly long magic phase (from the VC at least), followed by an awe inspiring Elven shooting phase. I don't know about Mike, but I know Steve could field the 6 Reaper Bolt throwers he'd be allowed.
Then you get the problems caused by the game-wide effects and unique items. Would each Elf army be allowed an Annulian Crystal and/or Banner of Sorcery, could the Vamps have 2 Books of Arkan, or two Mannfred's . . . If you ask John and I to both bring 3.5k VC armies then you will get duplicate items.
Then there's the global effects spells. Will Drain Magic effect only one enemy army, or would it effect both - and will it effect both Elf armies? If so, then there will need to be one magic phase per side, not two separate ones. The same sort of thing for the VC spell Winds of Undeath.
You need to sort all this sort of stuff out beforehand.
Maybe we can discuss it tonight.
|
|
|
Post by mike on Jul 7, 2008 16:09:01 GMT
Actually Mark, I hadn't even considered that side - but you're quite right, these things need to be decided
My inclination is to say that duplicate items are probably OK - the rules say only one per ARMY, so if we view it as two allied HE armies (or two allied VC armies for that matter) the item problem sorts itself out - I can quite believe that there are two (or more) Banners of Sorcery in existance - after all if you can make one, you can make two
Doesn't solve the issue of named characters though - after all there really is only one Mannfred in the VC realms and one Telfis in the HE lands
Regarding game-wide effects, I'd say they are just that - game wide. If that means one global magic phase then so be it
Actually, that might solve the problem over dispelling - the player who owns the targeted unit gets to dispel or not as he sees fit - if there's only going to be two players oer side this should work fine, but it could get confusing if there are more
That's just my initial thoughts of course - thoughts please gentlemen
|
|
|
Post by Mark Wightman on Jul 7, 2008 16:37:20 GMT
Oops - Mike's views on this are almost the exact opposite of mine. Army wide effects - effect both armies, but duplicate items across both armies are allowed. Doesn't compute for me. It needs to be one thing or the other. Either we are playing a 7k game, or two separate, but linked 3.5k games. The forces are either two armies or one. Not one thing for somethings and another for another.
|
|
|
Post by ralkr56 on Jul 7, 2008 22:33:20 GMT
1 - 8 is fine by me so long as I know is advance (I take it we finish gaming at 8 then start clearing up?)
Can you confirm you definitely want my High Elves? I can then look to base some of them up properly. Mark most of my elite infantry is not yet painted so could I borrow some of yours if needed?
Did anyone ask Derek if he could get a pass for teh day as he has a small high elf army?
|
|
|
Post by John on Jul 8, 2008 9:44:09 GMT
"I was kind of hoping we were going to try and organise something a little more sophisticated than 2 vs 2 "I can bring 3.5k (or any other value)" battle. Perhaps I'd misunderstood." Do you mean more sophisticated in terms of Back Story and such like, or in terms of rules? Although I had intended to make a few very minor rules tweaks, I hadn't expected to have a particularily deep back story, simply as without knowing who and what armies would be involved any back story could of seemed rather bizarre. Obviously if one side can outsize the other some form of defencesive scenario could be played, and especially if the theme remains High Elves vs Vampire Counts actually setting the battle to a certain time and event will be easier. - - - With regards to army building, and other areas of the game. I am of the view that armies should be treated individually (with sides of course being welcome and hopefully choosing to theme their forces). The reason for this is almost entirely simplicity but balance is also a minor factor. Although at 2v2 and 7k a side it would not be impossible (or even very difficult) to create two 7k armies and share them, this dodges the issue rather than trying to find a fix that would work on a larger scale. Mark: I was a bit confused about your comment regarding up to 4 Lords, surely compared to one 7k army that could have 6! that's quite tame? By treating armies seperately it allows players to create a list without having to worry about the content of other peoples army, and this would extend as far as special characters (although I would like to avoid that situation here by agreeing who takes Teclis/Mannfred etc in advance). At the kind of scale we are talking about the presence of two BoSorcery or two Dread Lances isn't going to throw the game off balance, and if they are limited to one per side it gives an unfair advantage to sides that contain armies from seperate books / Dwarves who can create an ungodly number of magic rune items and Daemons whos gifts don't count as magic items. On top of which having to agree who gets what magic item before writing lists sounds pointlessly finickity. - - - This seperation of armies is something I also believe needs to extend into the magic phase, although in this case more for balance and time efficiency. The time efficiency arguement is simple, even at 2v2 the time should be halved if the two phases happen together rather than in order (the fact it saves a lot of team discussion about order should in fact make it even quicker). The balance motive is wider in scope: 1/ Any player on a side containing a none magical army would be massively disadvantaged in it's magic phase. (Example: 2HE & 1 Dwarf VS 2 VC and 1 Dark Elf, the High Elves generate 20PD each which should be enough to give them powerful phases, but because the Dwarf doesn't generate any they have a problem, as although they could get past one evil armies magic defence they basically have to beat 1.5 armies worth). 2/ Spells that effect everything are balanced at 2000 point games. Increasing their effect to cover armies of more than 3 times this size makes them disproportionally effective, and will lead to magic phases dedicated to casting spells with this characteristic (Summon Undead Horde ^_^) 3/ A player could effectively have his magic phase removed because his team mates roll poorly and fail to cast (leaving the dispelling side with lots of dice). (example: How often have you had one magic phase that ends with you casting nothing and your opponent having 4+ Dispel dice left because of failed casts, and then the next turn you cast 3+ spells? Combining magic phases is basically the same as giving your opponent those 4 dice back that he didn't need last turn...) - - - Given the above it is my intention to make the following clarifications: Lists: Each army is completely independant from the others on it's side and only has to be legal as an individual entity. Magic: Spell effects with no specific target, or which target entire armies/sides must be targetted at a specific players army. I will also remove the original magic rule regarding dispel scrolls. Theme: I would suggest that we use one of the battles during Vlads assault upon the Empire. This gives both sides flexibility over special characters, and although I haven't read anything saying the High Elves involved themselves, pesky Elves are always stepping in to tip the balance in their favour. I will try and flesh the scenario out with this basis. - - - Steve: No I don't think anyone did ask Derek? Obviously another player would be welcome, as it may well be the case that the Vamps will be outnumbered I will plan out a scenario that would work in that case. Time wise I'm hopefull we can finish before 20:00, but yes I would intend to play up to the end of a turn around 20:00 and then clear up if we aren't. Mark: I will PM you regarding the Vampire force, so we can try and avoid taking carbon copy lists
|
|
|
Post by Mark Wightman on Jul 8, 2008 11:06:37 GMT
By treating armies seperately it allows players to create a list without having to worry about the content of other peoples army, and this would extend as far as special characters (although I would like to avoid that situation here by agreeing who takes Teclis/Mannfred etc in advance). At the kind of scale we are talking about the presence of two BoSorcery or two Dread Lances isn't going to throw the game off balance, and if they are limited to one per side it gives an unfair advantage to sides that contain armies from seperate books / Dwarves who can create an ungodly number of magic rune items and Daemons whos gifts don't count as magic items. On top of which having to agree who gets what magic item before writing lists sounds pointlessly finickity. - - - This seperation of armies is something I also believe needs to extend into the magic phase, although in this case more for balance and time efficiency. The time efficiency arguement is simple, even at 2v2 the time should be halved if the two phases happen together rather than in order (the fact it saves a lot of team discussion about order should in fact make it even quicker). Which is pretty much what I was trying to say yesterday, only I didn't have time to say it. - - - Given the above it is my intention to make the following clarifications: Lists: Each army is completely independant from the others on it's side and only has to be legal as an individual entity. Magic: Spell effects with no specific target, or which target entire armies/sides must be targetted at a specific players army. I will also remove the original magic rule regarding dispel scrolls. I think this suggestion is the only one that would work. My suggestion was going to be; 1 - Separate lists for each player (3.5k if that's what we want) 2 - No duplicate named Characters 3 - Magic phases are paired off at the start. You can only dispel spells cast by your paired opponent, or spells which directly target one of your units. Only one chance to dispel/scroll per spell. 4 - Global Magic effects only effect the two paired opposing armies. 5 - Spells can be targeted on any unit, but army wide spells (Winds of Undeath, Drain Magic etc) can only target your paired army. Steve: No I don't think anyone did ask Derek? Obviously another player would be welcome, as it may well be the case that the Vamps will be outnumbered I will plan out a scenario that would work in that case. If Derek is up for it then perhaps we could recruit Dave to the Dark side. We may want to consider dropping the points per army if it's 3 v 3. 10.5k per side will take some time.
|
|
|
Post by Mark Wightman on Jul 8, 2008 11:09:44 GMT
Can you confirm you definitely want my High Elves? I can then look to base some of them up properly. Mark most of my elite infantry is not yet painted so could I borrow some of yours if needed? No problem. I've lots of White Lions and Swordmasters, and a few (10 I think) Phoenix Guard. Let me know what you need for your list and I'll bring them along. Based at the moment in 4x2 blocks, but I can split a couple easily enough.
|
|
|
Post by mike on Jul 10, 2008 7:50:54 GMT
Spells can be targeted on any unit, but army wide spells (Winds of Undeath, Drain Magic etc) can only target your paired army. Does that mean I couldn't target Drain Magic at the army opposing one of my allies? If so, that seems a little too restrictive to me.
|
|
|
Post by Mark Wightman on Jul 10, 2008 9:47:12 GMT
Spells can be targeted on any unit, but army wide spells (Winds of Undeath, Drain Magic etc) can only target your paired army. Does that mean I couldn't target Drain Magic at the army opposing one of my allies? If so, that seems a little too restrictive to me. Yes, that is exactly what I am suggesting. Otherwise the magic phase will bog down and all have to be done at once. This would be the same for both sides, as the Vamps have their own army wide spells.
|
|
|
Post by John on Jul 10, 2008 10:27:25 GMT
1 - Separate lists for each player (3.5k if that's what we want) 2 - No duplicate named Characters 4 - Global Magic effects only effect the two paired opposing armies. Definitely 3 - Magic phases are paired off at the start. You can only dispel spells cast by your paired opponent, or spells which directly target one of your units. Only one chance to dispel/scroll per spell. The one chance to dispel/scroll is fine and something we all appear to be agreed on. But only your paired opponent should be allowed to dispel, otherwise every time a spell targets someone else a player not involved in that paired magic phase would have to be involved (with a discussion regarding who has what dice, number of scrolls yada yada.) 5 - Spells can be targeted on any unit, but army wide spells (Winds of Undeath, Drain Magic etc) can only target your paired army. I don't see the need for this limitation. If you can target specific units that your paired opponent doesn't control you should also be able to target whole armies he doesn't. There is no real complexity in casting Drain Magic, Summon Horde or Winds on other peoples armies.
|
|