A return to HeroHammer

[Mark Wightman]

Just trying to get some chat going here, chaps ;-)

Is WHFB slipping back towards Herohammer? Are core units simply delivery vehicles, or ablative wounds for characters? There's certainly been a trend over the last few army books that has encouraged players to put more and more points into their Lord/Hero selections.

Is the reason behind this Magic? Is Magic being encouraged by making it too good?

Please don't get me wrong as I do not mean this as a criticism of either list or player, as both were good, but take my last two 1500 pt games to demonstrate.

In both games my Lizards were running 3 characters, using 459 pts - which I consider a heavy investment. Magic was 1 x L1 scroll caddy, 3PD 4DD

Last night I faced Mike's High Elves, sporting 3 L2 Wizards, clocking in at approx 535 with magic items. They also had access to the Banner of Sorcery for an awe inspiring magic phase. 9+D3 PD plus Ring of Fury, 5 (+1 of mine) DD

Good job my Terradon Riders performed for a change.

The previous week I faced John's VC. I can't quite remember his magical equipment, but they must have cost about 600pts and produced a 8 + Periapt, 5DD magic phase.

Again, without my Terradon/Kroxigor tag-team I'd have been swamped in the Magic phase.

I don't think either the HE or VC builds were too extreme, and they do suffer from a shortage of bodies and the absence of a really tough fighting character, but both are viable lists. The new Daemon list is more or less the same and it would be quite easy to spend 600+ pts on characters.

Is this the way that Warhammer is going? Are the Dark Elves going to follow suit? Let's face it they were always quite magical, or could be . . .

[Stephen Mawson]

Characters in themselves are not more effective than units, but almost any unit with a combat oriented character will likely defeat an enemy unit without one, provided the units are roughly numerically similar.

Having less or cheaper characters means extra units, it’s just that providing your opponent plays reasonably intelligently exploiting flank and rear charge opportunities afforded to you by having additional units is difficult, or at the least time consuming as the more time you have to spend manoeuvring to set up that flank charge, the less time you have left to break your opponents armies.

It’s often easier not to bother as a frontal charge with a reasonably tooled up character will normally give you enough combat res to break through you enemies units. If this is your intended tactic then spending extra points on your characters is the intelligent choice, as anything that will increase the characters chances of killing the enemy increases your units chances of success on the charge.

I’d have said that this is nothing particularly new however. In the various GW tournaments I’ve attended the usual tactic is to field three characters, and in my experience I’d have said that most fairly competitive army builds would be looking to spend between a quarter and a third of their army points on characters as a minimum.

In terms of wizards ever since they changed the game from using magic cards over to using dice (5th to 6th editions), the optimum choices for magic using armies is either to take a single wizard as magic defence, or to take three as magic offence.

With magic if you want to ensure you can do the damage with it you need to have overwhelming force. This tends to mean three wizards as as the spell casting rules slightly favour the dispelling army two wizards versus one often means that the two fail to get any spells off at all.

Since wizard characters tend to be more expensive than others most armies fielding three of them inevitably have a heavy points investment in those characters. Three level 2 high elf wizards simply packing a dispel scroll each will weigh in at somewhere around 500 points, and most armies wizards are similar in terms of costs.

But this tendency is something has been around since the start of 6th edition, and 7th hasn’t changed it much. I’d have to say things are still much better than 5th edition where a typical competitive army build would be looking at spending as close to half the army points as possible on characters.

[John]

In the case of the VC and the new Daemons characters are both very attractive options, in both cases the characters help buff the basic troops (VC: IoN + kill stuff themselves, Daemons: Heralds giving units new abilities).
I'm actually looking to tone back the characters in my 1500 build (Mann + Vamp General), as this still generates 7PD and costs 400, which should allow me to bulk up elsewhere.

I actually think even with the new HE/Vamps & Daemons the magic side of characters hasn't become overly powerful. Most armies can bring capable magic defence for very little cost:
> Orcs: Scroll Shaman & Banner of Ranks as Dispel = 140 points for 6DD & 2 Scrolls.
> Dwarves: Runesmith = 150 points for 5DD and 3 Scrolls.
> Vamps: Vamp & Scroll Necro = 100 points (you bought the Vamp anyway) 4DD & 2 Scrolls

A High Elf player who is spending 650 points getting 9+D3 power dice is dedicating half their army to one phase of the game. The Scroll Mage, Bolt Thrower, 12 Swordmasters & 6 Dragon Princes they could of bought instead would hardly be a push over.

It does seem that with my Vamps, the Skeletons are basically just providing ranks, banner and outnumber but from what I have seen this was always the case with Undead.
I know with my Dwarves that I have great faith in the basic troops, and try and keep my character costs to a minimum (generally 300-400 max in 1500)

I think as Stephen correctly states, the current magic system makes mediocre magic pointless. You either have to go casting crazy or not bother and only take magic defence.

The new Dark Elf magic is going to be very strange. They have a basic spell that generates more dice (which wound them if not used) and can use as many dice as they like to cast (not lvl+1).
This might conversely encourage people to only take one level 2 mage (As they can throw the 6 (average) dice they have through them easily) at 1500.

I know a number of tournaments place limits on casting and dispel pools (counting bound and scrolls as dice). Personally I am no fan of tournaments that start changing the basic rules, but perhaps this kind of idea makes for a more balanced game.
(But then it why not bring in rules saying 50% of models must move 5" or less, no more than 1/3rd of models can have a ranged attack or even everyone must use Empire....).

[terrywarden]

No wonder us mere mortals suffer at this game; how do you remember all this stuff. Here I am trying to come up with new innovative; exicting and challenging Empire list? My poor Warrior Priest is wilting at the thought of all of those power and dispel dice.

[John]

Warrior Priests are a pretty weak option, although the FAQ allowing them to take a bound spell item at least makes them a little more useful.
The normal Empire tactic is either a Caddy (lvl 1 with 2 scrolls) or the magic item (Rod of Power?) that lets you keep back dice between phases.
A level 2 Fire Mage (with Rod & Scroll) and a Priest (with bound item) can actually give a reliable magic phase, and passable magic defence, although with such cost effective combat heros I would prefer them to a Priest.

[Stephen Mawson]

I'm less sure about that. I've actually found the Priests to be more of a nuisance than the wizards. I had dreadful trouble with a empire army with 3 warrior priests, if only because he was effectively putting out 4 or possibly 5 bound spell a turn, which I found difficult to cope with in terms of dispelling.

Some of the prayers are a dreadful nuisance. The unbreakable one is a nightmare if cast on a large block of spearmen for example. Don't the priests confer hatred on the unit their with in the first round of combat?

Having said that if I was building an empire army from scratch I think I would be looking at something along the lines of 3 wizards, 2 great cannons, a steam tank and multiple units of knights.

[Mark Wightman]

Yes - priests give the unit they are with Hatred.

Their bound Prayers are all useful too. Unbreakable: whilst the Priest lives is probably the best, but Soulfire is nasty if you're Undead, Demons are a Forest Spirit.

And then there's the Healing Hand spell - useful.

All bound level 4 - 2 DD needed to reliably dispel, and the Unbreakable isn't RIP.

I'm tempted by two Priests, 1 Wizard. 4PD, 2 bound Prayers and 2 bound items. 5DD. Not shabby, and the Priests an fight (a bit).

[Stephen Mawson]

They're actually not bad in a fight. Better than most empire unit champions. Given one of the standard magic weapons (Sword of Battle, Sword of Might, etc) they can be pretty decent. Especially coupled with the hatred re-roll.

[mike]

Ye gads - I think I'm with Terry on this one

Being something of a newbe at this game I'm still trying to work out what works and what doesn't - no wonder I keep getting soundly thrashed

[dave3]

I have been playing WH for ages, and I don't get all the ins and outs. I think it best to move stuff about the table and hope for the best!! ;D

[sapper]

Dave,

Now, there's a philosophy of wargaming I can (and do) subscribe to !!

Martyn

[Matt]

Its a fantasy game, now most fantasy novels revolve around hero's. Job done. Men in loin clothes, maybe some dragons, evil dudes, treasure, and of course magic hoorah!
I've been playing since its was released and I'm still crap at it but the main thing that keeps you coming back is the magic, monsters, heros/villains if you're undead.
If you want to play a game concentrating on the troops play FOG ;D

[John]

It looks likely that my tournament list is going to include 610 points of characters (40%!) which I have to admit is a very high figure.
On this grounds I suppose it is fair to say that characters have been quite important in the last few books (HE, VC and Daemons), certainly more than average I hope. I know O&G, Empire and Dwarves all tend to be less character heavy.

Warrior Priests: I can see the arguements for them, but I just don't see the value myself. The magic ability is poor compared to a wizard (both in offence and defence) and other Heros can far exceed them in other uses (General, BSB, Combat ability).
Even at 1500 I would always choose 2x lvl 2 wizards (rod, 2 scrolls and power stone) for a blend of magic offence and defence (has the ability to put out 11PD in one turn, and 8 reliably), or a mere single lvl 1 mage with 2 scrolls for defence (which doesn't cost much more than a basic Priest with no scrolls!).

[Mark Wightman]

610 !!!! OMG!!!

Does that include the Corpse Cart or is the real total 710

I guess that's Vamps for you. I can't imagine another army that could spend that much on 3 Hero level characters.

[mike]

Not sure about that - my HE certainly come close

Looks like I'm going to settle on three tooled up Lvl2 mages, which comes out at somthing like 550 points (I've tooled 'em up a bit more since they met Mark's lizardmen) - not sure of the exact total, don't have the figures to hand

Add in the Banner of Sorcery (at 50pts), which is included purely for their benefit, and I'm up there too

Persoanlly I think it's probably worth it (Mark pointed out just how scary a HE magic phase can get), so maybe this game is all about heroes